Katie:

“This is amazing. It is so cool. I mean, you see them, we see numbers when we put out a podcast episode or send out a newsletter, but we really only see numbers on the screen. So to get to talk to you and see your face because it's just incredible. It's like a real people actually Iisten to our work, which is crazy. Thank you so much for being part of Rich Girl Nation. Thank you for making my theater kid dreams come true. I could not have done this without all of you, so let's raise a glass to all of us to get together. We are truly unstoppable. Thank you guys.”

Welcome back to another Rich Girl Roundup. Henah, I feel like I need to go “yeehaw” after the party on Tuesday.

Henah:

No one's ever going to let it go.

Katie:

I am, of course, Katie Gatti Tassin, and in every couple of episodes, my executive producer Henah and I sit down to discuss your feedback, your questions, any new considerations that are raised. And I have to say feedback on the last batch. It's been pretty interesting. I was not expecting it.

Henah:

For sure. First I must say “love it.” And the amount of people that came up to me at the party and said, “Love it.” Thanks. My legacy. Thanks for that, Nick.

So I had no clue what we'd hear from all of you for these episodes. And so yeah, it has been fascinating for me. A lot of the emails we received about this batch were quite long, so in the interest of time, we're probably not going to read all of them in full, but we want to pull the parts that most capture the spirit of the idea, so we'll definitely try to include that.

But before we get to that, Katie, you and I just spent last week in New York City together celebrating the release of Rich Girl Nation.

Katie:

That's right.

Henah:

Someone was like, oh my God, how much do you and Katie hang out? And I was like, I think this is the fourth time we've ever met in three and a half years, but… The book is out in the world. Thousands of copies have been sold. You've done the interview and press circuit. We got to party with 150 members of Rich Girl Nation. Your family and friends flew in. How are you feeling, besides maybe exhausted?

Katie:

It's an absolutely wild feeling. I am so overwhelmed with gratitude for all the support on this project, and I actually feel like I should be sending out personalized thank you notes to all attendees and people who have ordered the book a la what you do after a wedding.

Henah:

So send me your addresses if you ordered the book and I'll make sure Katie sends you a little note.

Katie:

But at the same time, I do feel like there's too much of me on the internet right now. This happens to me whenever there's a big push like this. I feel very overexposed. So I wrote a couple of op-eds for outlets like Time Magazine, New York Magazine, the Wall Street Journal, which having bylines in publications, that is kind of a dream come true for a little wannabe writer like me. But dude, it's a lot of comment sections to be picked apart in all at once. So I am basically just trying to avoid all of that as much as possible.

Henah:

I think it's weird for you to call yourself a wannabe writer when you literally published a book, but okay.

Katie:

We're working on it

Henah:

Working on the imposter syndrome. No, I get that. And I saw a couple of the posts that you did on feeds of the publications and then someone would say something snarky in their comments and I'd be like, I have to remember that people are just reading a pull quote of something that you said. They're not reading the full thing with nuance, and so I totally understand where you're coming from.

I will say, it was such a whirlwind and a gratifying experience to be a part of. So for those who missed it in person, I thought we could do a quick rapid fire about the week. So I'm going to start with number one. What was the most surreal moment for you besides the launch party attendee who said that this was “her Eras Tour”? That is, you've already told the world about that one.

Katie:

That was amazing. Yeah. So okay, one moment. One moment I'll never forget was it happened at the launch party in the line to get books signed. I met this woman named Babs. So when Georgia was diagnosed with cancer and I was having a very hard time two years ago, Babs reached out and said she wanted to make Georgia a custom blanket. So she ended up shipping us two versions of this very beautiful cozy blanket that she custom made for Beans.

Henah:

It was like blue and purple, right?

Katie:

Yeah. She named it Lavender Haze after the Taylor Swift song.

Henah:

Of course.

Katie:

It was very meaningful to me. It was the blanket that we snuggled her in on the last day of her life. And so just meeting the human in real life whose kindness made a very difficult time easier actually made me cry in the book signing line. If you want to check out her blankets, her Instagram handle is @gentlegiantblanketco, and they are amazing.

Henah:

I love that. Okay. What was your favorite meal in New York City?

Katie:

I ate nothing fun because I pretty much just drank chicken broth and ate fruit. I was really nervous and I was going to eat something crazy and it was going to make my stomach go crazy. I was already so nervous. I was like, okay, I can't tempt the IBS gods and test my fate here. I have to really stick to the easy to digest foods.

Henah:

You missed out on my favorite Mexican food, which I will eventually forgive you for, but I get it.

Katie:

You sent me a picture of those enchiladas and I was like, yeah, that would've wrecked me. That would've absolutely obliterated me.

Henah:

To be fair, it totally did wreck me the next day, but it was worth it.

Katie:

Worth it.

Henah:

So while we were in the city, I watched you do something like four or five different interviews and Q&As, which question were you asked that you were still thinking about?

Katie:

So someone at the 92nd Street Y talk asked me, after we had talked about kind of the cultural Girlboss era and where it fell short, she asked me what I thought the current shortcomings were in our conversations about women, work, money, et cetera, and I didn't have a good answer at the time. I still don't. I'm still thinking about it, but I told her at the time, I wonder if this is something we'll only be able to recognize in retrospect. But yeah, that's one that I thought was really interesting.

Henah:

Yeah, I remember when they asked the question, everyone's heads in the room started nodding the way you do when you hear a really good question. So I personally am reminded a lot of the work that Berna, Berna Anat has done to really shed light on first generation Americans trying to build wealth and also supporting their families, and I feel like that is a perspective that we don't really get to see or hear in our conversations as much. I think it is very much individualist, bootstrap mentality a lot.

And so at the launch party, the number one comment that women came up to me and said was that they were first gen, too, and that they felt seen when I would talk about it. And just addressing that reality. I mean, to be fair, we're talking about five people, but just addressing that reality has, it goes a long way and we're all immigrants here unless you're indigenous. So it feels like a shortcoming that we don't talk about that aspect more.

Final of the lightning round. Which day was better: Launch day or your wedding?

Katie:

I plead the fifth.

Henah:

Okay. I will say that meeting Jonathan Van Ness beat out both the launch and my own wedding. So sorry to Jovanni,  but I almost passed out, so that's fine.

So after our last Rich Girl Roundup where we mentioned that reviews really do as a solid, we received dozens of them. Thank you. Since we don't want to do a naval gazing episode round two, sorry to Katie, I'll just share a few, both good and bad, to level set how people are feeling about our recent work and content. Is that cool?

Katie:

Yeah, nothing can bring me down.

Henah:

Alright. Well, I'm inspired by your optimism. We'll see what happens.

Katie:

You're like challenge accepted.

Henah:

There are basically three strains we heard, the most positive and generous being that our show's evolution has helped folks to both gain their own financial footing and see the bigger picture around them.

Katie:

Good. Well, the book I think really crystallizes that approach for sure. So I'm glad that you feel that way. The one that you pulled that made me laugh the most from this bunch came from Rich Gal Mandy W, who wrote, “Stay at home mom here in North Dallas. I love the show. I do miss the tactical financial episodes, but do enjoy the new content as well. I'm writing this mostly to let you know as a stay-at-home mom of three littles, I find your content just perfect and it gives me brain tingles, which is so nice because as a stay-at-home mom, there's only so much unicorn and monster truck I can do…”

Henah:

I can only imagine. I love when people say brain tingles or like, it hits a spot in my brain. You know what I mean?

Katie:

Should we start doing finance ASMR? Roth IRA?

Henah:

401(k). Diversification.

Henah:

So there was a note of celebration that I wanted to mention for Rich Guy Aaron who said, “Thank you guys so much for this show. It's been my go-to for drives and has given me so much insight when it comes to my investing in the stock market and even real estate just recently FIREd, and it's in part thanks to this podcast. I always look forward to the newest episode.” So hell yeah, Aaron.

Katie:

That is incredible. I'll let you know when I catch up to you.

Henah:

Yeah, I'll be in touch in about 17 years, but good for you Aaron. So the next strain of content was mostly kind, but some hinted that the content can sometimes feel a bit out of reach, so I wanted to talk about that. Rich Girl Laura shared, “I genuinely love this podcast. Katie breaks down complex financial concepts in a way that's smart, engaging, and totally digestible. It's one of the few money shows I can listen to without zoning out or feeling completely lost. That said, as a 26-year-old working at a nonprofit in DC trying to stay afloat and pay off debt, I sometimes feel left behind in conversations. I actually earn more than the average American, and still the strategies often feel geared toward those with serious wealth or high disposable income. It's hard to think about optimizing tax strategies, backdoor Roths, or donor-advised funds when you're just focused on staying housed and putting food on the table. I think it's worth acknowledging that if I feel left out of these discussions, the average American likely does too. I listen because I believe in the power of financial education and Katie does it better than almost anyone. I'd just love to see more content for those still in the trenches, not just those on the financial offense.”

And a lot of this felt like a mirror to my old self, so I completely get where Laura is coming from. And something we talked about a lot in the early days was that balance of, you can only cut back so much on expenses, and that really increasing your income is the key here. And I know you touch upon this in the book too, Katie.

Katie:

Yeah. We also heard a similar sentiment from Mel B. who said, “I've always felt like financial content for me. I work in public health and just always figured I wouldn't be in the tax bracket to be someone who would ever attain financial freedom. Katie is helping me at least not feel completely overwhelmed by the world of finance and the discussions of broader social and structural issues keep me engaged in the content. However, as someone living paycheck to paycheck without much of a safety net, who is also trying to pay off student loans, I sometimes feel left behind by these conversations and wish there was more financial advice for those who are just trying to get by.”

Anecdotally, I will say, and I want to come back to this later, I actually think that this strain of feedback connects to something that we're going to talk about at the end of this episode, but I do feel as though we are hearing this sort of experience from more people now who report that these circumstances are getting harder than we ever did years ago. So if our feedback and if our emails are any indication, I do think more people today are living with financial strain than at any other time that we've been doing this work.

Which sort of makes me think actually about a question that we talked through at the 92nd Street Y, when someone asked about AI and how it's going to impact things. I do think it's noteworthy that we're starting to see AI impact hiring and downsizing at major firms that are huge employers like Microsoft. And so I just keep thinking about when and how we're going to reach that point, societally speaking, where we literally don't have a choice anymore about whether or not we're going to institute something like a UBI or Universal Basic Services because employment will eventually just become so hard to come by.

And I don't say that to fearmonger, but just simply to note that sometimes it feels like people receive those sorts of topics and conversations as pie in the sky, liberal pipe dreams. But I really think within 10 years it is going to look politically unavoidable. And so to see this sort of feedback coming up more now than we've ever gotten, it is meaningful to me in that way. I think these things are connected and will continue to be connected.

Henah:

I do think to an extent, maybe the stuff that we did earlier was for people with higher incomes and maybe as we've tried to connect the dots on how it's all related, people who are kind of across the income gamut are listening in more, and so they might feel like a little bit more out of reach than before.

But yeah, I mean when you talk about what we might look back in retrospect as a shortcoming, maybe this is one of those things, well, we'll say, how did we not have these conversations about universal basic services earlier and the fact that employment might be at risk for a lot of people.

I'll also add, I think this is a good time to remind you all that we've built free 101 courses on our website if you are looking for beginner-friendly personal finance education, especially the folks who said that they've missed our tactical content. We have Personal Finance 101, Investing 101, Financial Independence 101. Katie and I have spent many hours creating and inputting all those lessons. So we want to make sure you know it's there and I'll add it to the show notes.

Katie, we finally reached your favorite level of review, the less-than-nice ones.

Katie:

The flagellation part of the show.

Henah:

So another Katie wrote, “This show has been heading downhill ever since Katie's become a socialist. I really enjoyed hearing JL Collins teach Katie about capitalism.” And someone named Rachel M. commented on our episode about using economic uncertainty to build your dream life, that was the episode with Amanda Holden, and they said, “This is political and not enough financial way, which I think is acceptable and interesting even when I disagree with you and extremely isolating. I'm sorry, Katie, you've lost me here. Unfollow.” I think my favorite part of that is, “and not in a financial way, which I think is acceptable.”

Katie:

I don't understand that review. I'm going to be so honest.

Henah:

Particularly for that episode, but…

Katie:

It's acceptable and interesting even when I disagree. Okay.

I thought that the stack of dozens of books that I've read by economists and historians were what taught me about capitalism but go off. Not bitter. We're going to have some fun with that one. Hold on tight everyone. The gloves are coming off a little bit in T minus 10 minutes.

Henah:

So finally, someone named a Buckeyes fan gave us three stars and said, “Good content. But it seems like you love to argue and think you're right on everything.” And I found this one particularly interesting because the whole reason you've pushed back more in recent episodes and in good faith I'd add is because listeners have said they wanted to hear more pushback. So can't win 'em all, I guess.

Katie:

Well, I mean, it's hard not to argue and think you're right when you have such perfect opinions about everything. Yeah, you think you're right. Well, of course I do. This is a podcast people who think they're wrong and have a healthy level of self-doubt don't start podcasts, Buckeyes Fan. This is a self-selection bias of people who like the sound of their own voice.

So we will dive into episode specific feedback right after a quick break.

“And to Henah, my executive producer who planned this event by herself in 10 days. Yes. And you made the unjustifiable happen by your dedication to Money with Katie over the last three years. Would not be here without you.”

Welcome back. So out of the three most recent episodes, the one that generated the most feedback by a landslide was our conversation with JL Collins, the Godfather of Financial Independence, where we talked about student loans, save rates, and being a capitalist. As we all know, that was the part of the conversation that got everybody spun up, whether you were on Team JL or Team Katie, people had a lot of thoughts about this.

Henah:

The last time we had him on the show, it was our most popular episode ever. It was largely tactical and now that it's been a few years and the show has evolved a bit, it was interesting to watch our readers kind of evolve with us and push back on some of the stuff that seemed kind of like table stakes earlier.

Katie:

Yeah, I mean, I want to make sure that regardless of the difference in how JL and I see the world, which I think were pretty clearly outlined in the episode, it's still important to me that we had a civil discussion and continue to discuss our differences with respect here. So if you left a super snarky comment, that's fine, but we're not going to read it on air.

Henah:

Yeah. We actually had a number of comments basically praising the way that you approached those disagreements that you had. So DebiC27 wrote, “Love the back and forth, so nice to hear people disagree respectfully, but still value each other's contribution.” And then CN2545 said, “I appreciate the pushback from JL Collins at certain points Katie had and the productive conversation within the episode. We'd love to see more of these types of discussions.” And then Jared added, “Wow, such a great episode to listen to. I thought you made your points well, Katie. He did offer some heavyweight pushback, but I thought your argument was just as valid and well delivered.”

Katie:

Thank you. I think there were also lot of people who were just looking for more of a Real Housewives reunion with Andy Cohen vibe to the conversation, which fair enough.

Tricia said, “Wish you had pushed back on a very male-centric time-based view on achieving personal goals that include an order of operations to hit financial freedom ahead of family planning.” Then Haley said, “Not my favorite episode. While I understand wanting to make guests feel comfortable, I would've appreciated more pushback without backing down. I wish this interview had a tone more similar to a Diabolical Lies episode.” So if you want the snarky three hour breakdown about capitalism as a system, there is actually a place that you can get that. And it is my other podcast called Diabolical Lies in an episode called The Rise and Fall of Capitalism. It covers everything from the inherent tensions in the system to the way that the defense of it is sort of built in where whether you're successful or unsuccessful in this system, there's always a reason why you shouldn't be critiquing it to the way that competition is actually what causes monopoly power, not the other way around, to the 50 year history of the CIA covertly and violently putting down revolutions in literally dozens of other countries and killing literally millions of people who were trying to get out from under American capitalism in the 20th century and then said, see, there's no other economic system that works. So if you're into that sort of thing, I would say go listen to that.

I would also add on the pushback part: I understand the impulse of, I wish you would've kept pushing that forward and not agree to disagree and move on. The funny thing is I wasn't even going to broach that topic with him because for people who don't make it an explicit part of their work, I just kind of assume they haven't thought about it very much or don't feel super strongly about it.

But the only reason I brought it up was because there was a section in his book where he talked about feeling like it was unfair for some people to subsidize lower fees and therefore higher returns for others in the way that Fidelity structures its fee model in some of its funds. And then at another point in the book, he makes a pretty full-throated endorsement of capitalism. And that just struck me as funny because his critique of the fee model rhetorically mirrors the reason why many people feel that a system that divides people by workers and owners is unfair.

And so I just want to say and take the opportunity to note here that 65% of Americans, the majority of Americans own nothing. Their net worth is effectively zero. So what we're doing right now is not working for the majority of people. The majority of people are forced to trade their time for money.

I wanted to bring that up to him and be like, do you see this connection between these two beliefs that you hold? Because to me, they don't quite reconcile. And obviously if you heard the interview, you know that he did not agree with me and then he brought up Bezos and Amazon, so then that kind of got us down that rabbit hole.

But here's the thing, I am never going to badger a guest who comes on my show in good faith to have a conversation about their ideas just because we see something differently. If I hadn't invited him on explicitly to debate his beliefs about billionaires and Amazon, that would've been a completely different conversation, but it just felt like the wrong avenue to go down. And so unless somebody is saying something blatantly bigoted, somebody just expressing a difference of opinion from me about whether billionaires are a sign of moral decay or not, still deserves to be heard. And I think what's interesting about some of the feedback that we've received and just the way that I think many Americans feel about this is that a lot of Americans really agree with him.

His opinion, while unpopular in my circles of people who like to read Jacobin magazine for fun and talk about labor unions is actually broadly quite popular in the rest of the United States. And so I think it's really worth remembering that and thinking about how can we, at least this is how I think about it, how can we bring more people around to these ideas? Because many of you listening I'm sure, agreed more with him than with me, and I think that's fine. That's why I want you to listen to this show, but also go listen to my three-hour exegesis on the topic because I think I can change your mind… because I love to argue and obviously think I'm always right.

Henah:

My three hour exegesis, she is too academic, everybody! What is it like being married to a lawyer who presumably loves to argue also?

Katie:

Oh God, he actually doesn't even try anymore. He'll be like, okay, Katie.

Henah:

It's kind of the cultural red pilling to me about bootstraps and billionaires in which I think there's a false equivalency with entrepreneurship, because I'm all about small businesses and letting people pursue the things that they can't stop thinking about. But as you all know, my joke is that if Jeff Bezos has no haters, it's because I'm dead. So you can imagine that I certainly also felt a type of way hearing what JL said about Bezos as this entrepreneur and champion of capitalism.

And I'd say that that was, as you alluded to, Katie, the biggest through line of the feedback as well. And as I've mentioned on the show before, when you go on Spotify and you leave comments, people can like the comments now and the amount of likes on some of these really said a lot about how people were feeling.

So we'll start with a comment from someone called BigRedDog21.

Katie:

Alright, big dog.

Henah:

So big dog, BigRedDog21 said, “Comparing human workers to iron ore is definitely a hugely large reach. I really can't see how humans and human labor are remotely close to the same as material inputs. I definitely think that's how billionaires view their workers, but that's not how a worker views themselves.” That last line. Chef's kiss.

Katie:

And then Rich Girl Caroline K. wrote, “In the Amazon debate, I can't help thinking about the stories of Bezos being notoriously cruel and exploitative even in the garage days. And I wonder if there would've been an Amazon if his staff had walked out on him in the beginning. Also, you can't necessarily say Amazon wouldn't exist without Bezos because they have a long history of buying out their competitors. I'd be interested to hear what Collins thinks of a break even business model. Like in Madeline Pendleton's, I Survived Capitalism.” Which sidebar, I have been dying to read that book, but my stack of to be read is about 40 books high. So I'm resisting the urge to go order it right now. But yes, I also would be curious to know.

Henah:

Erling82 wrote, “The environmental destruction caused by Amazon makes it hard to champion it for creating jobs. He speaks like if Amazon didn't exist, all their workers would be unemployed. Maybe they could actually be working better jobs if we had more regulation of corporations.” And then Amy B. added the worthwhile note: “Strikes are effective negotiating tactics because companies can't operate without workers,” which true. And then DLBock, I think, mentioned quote, “I felt my chest tighten, especially when he said that Bezos had access to the same resources as anyone else.” Which reminds me of that quote that's like you have the same number of hours in a day as Beyonce. Sure.

Katie:

Yeah. Somatic awareness queen, with the chest tightening. Damn. Or king, or king.

Henah:

They/them royalty.

Katie:

To come back to Cynthia, the rest of the comment was listening to the bit about Amazon, “I couldn't help but think about how much Amazon changed the landscape for future innovators. We say Amazon wouldn't exist without Bezos, but what if someone else had had a similar idea and then not allowed it to grow into a cannibalistic monopoly that shuts down all other competitors? Then others could also innovate and workers would have leverage because more companies offer those products and services.” So true.

Henah:

That reminds me of when you and Grace Blakeley talked about capitalism and that there's a reason that other companies are not able to be successful aircraft manufacturing companies to the level of Boeing or Airbus.

Katie:

And then we got an email from Claire B. and we have shortened it considerably. So apologies Claire, but we're going to hit the parts that we think are pretty relevant here. She wrote, “Jeff received a $300,000 loan in 1995 from his parents as a gift very few people will receive. Some of those created jobs, undoubtedly, uplifted people's financial circumstances. Many have perpetuated the cycle of poverty due to low wages, but what about the small businesses his enterprises have killed?” I feel like this is the theme and the trend is you don't see the counterfactual of what sort of economic dynamism you would have without it. “What about the people who are paid so little they can't afford to take on the risk of entrepreneurship? And is Jeff Bezos truly doing enough work and bringing in enough value to make $3,715 per second? I'm reading Technofeudalism: What Killed Capitalism, and while I'm only a fraction of the way through, I would love to know if Collins is familiar with Varoufakis’ argument. I think we're seeing a shift that Collins isn't necessarily accounting for in his arguments. Entrepreneurship is difficult and always will be. However, you're now competing with massive mega tech companies that work together and lobby governments to bar other competition from rising in markets. I would love to know both y'all's thoughts on how Citizens United and the changing landscape of corporate interest groups have impacted the opportunity to break into markets and grow when you are competing against a class whose wealth compounds vastly faster than the bottom 90%.”

And yes, so Citizens United was basically the ruling that said money is speech, money is effectively the same as speech. And so corporations can spend to make their needs and desires known In our political system. It was a Supreme Court ruling in 2010, so we're about 15 years into the path that was paved for corporate interest by Citizens United.

I think for one thing I would say, Claire, maybe you should have been the one conducting this interview because you really know your stuff, but I also would just turn people on to, if you haven't listened to Gary Stevenson before, I think he covers this really well. Gary is this former Citi trader who made millions of pounds betting that wealth inequality would keep getting worse and now he's ringing the alarm that we face an existential threat and that without intervention, this is only going to get worse. There's no free market solution to what we're seeing now.

Henah:

Yeah, I had identical thoughts of what Claire was saying during the interview itself as I was listening. So Claire, you are royalty to me.

To kind of close out this point, SOLEEUW summed it up well as an actual economist, unlike two girls with podcast microphones. So they wrote, “Love JL Collins' personal finance advice and actually reallocated my portfolio based on his previous episode. However, as an economist, his notion that monopolization under capitalism being caused by bad actors and not the system itself is absolutely wrong due to economies of scale. Being the largest is profitable, if profit maximization is the goal of capitalism. Consolidation of capital into monopolies is a feature, not a bug.”

And Katie, isn't that kind of what Einstein essentially said back in the 1940s?

Katie:

Yep. And then he said, and then the people with all the money are going to buy your political system and there's no turning back. So tap sign of Elon Musk tweeting at Donald Trump, “Without me, you would've lost this election. I bought this election for you.” And scene.

Okay, so the second biggest theme that we heard was about higher education student loans and the trades. So Miranda S. wrote, “I'm so tired of the argument that trades will save us, especially because they're mostly made by college educated men. Trades are incredibly physically demanding, and trade school is often expensive itself.” And Shankify added to that comment underneath and said, “Also, most trade jobs don't offer health insurance and it's tough to get rich when you're drowning in medical debt,” which I didn't realize that. I didn't know that that was not common.

Henah:

And I think it's a really great point, especially when you are said entrepreneur, that you are often not having the best health insurance or you're only able to have health insurance because your spouse might have it. I'm thinking of Lindsey Stanberry in your conversation at the 92nd Street Y who kind of spoke to that.

And then BWTSWedding wrote, “The subtext is basically rich white people can go to college and do all the thinking and culturally influential jobs, but don't worry, poor predominantly people of color still have trade school and can make good money from their manual labor. So it's all fair and that's fine for society.” And so Shankify then chimed in again to say quote, “I didn't completely agree with his thoughts on this either, but he definitely didn't say that. I think we need to be careful not to make assumptions, particularly triggering ones.” And I also don't think this is exactly equivalent to what he said, but this overall sentiment kind of reminded me of another comment we got from Lambcleafs, which is such a good name, who said, “Also the convo about trades versus college was heavily biased towards male dominated professions. What's the equivalent for women, beauty work?”

Katie:

I found myself thinking a lot about Kathryn Edwards when we were talking about that and just the differences both in the prestige and pay assigned to pink collar work versus blue collar work and how care workers in these fields that are traditionally worked by women are not thought of as aspirational in any way. It's also a little bit reminiscent of the Celeste Davis piece about how now that colleges are majority female, you're starting to see this resurgence of people being like, we should get back into the trades. Men should go do that instead because there's this aversion to feminized spaces.

Okay, then we heard from Diane S who emailed, “I'm a long time listener of the show but have not previously commented. I'm finally braving my fears. I enjoyed listening to the recent episode featuring JL Collins, particularly your different viewpoints. The part of the episode that got my attention most was the discussion of trades contrasted with college, and I had a few thoughts I'm inspired to share.

To start with the obvious, I thought the example of two high school graduates with $100,000, one that went to college and one that started a trade and invested the $100,000 does not demonstrate that people who go into the trades could be ahead financially in the long run. It's an example that doesn't exist.

“The families of the vast majority of children graduating high school obviously do not have $100,000 to give to their graduating child. The ability to take out massive loans without showing an ability to repay or provide security and to pay them slowly over time is potentially only available for advanced education. Granted, some of this education could be in the trades, but that massive influx of money is not available to a young person to start a business (unless you're Jeff Bezos in 1995).

Using this example to try to make a point was odd, but it did sound like you both thought that the possibility of owning your own business and the trades might be more lucrative than working for an employer after obtaining a college degree. I question that. I think it's more likely that both paths lead to a similar spectrum of financial outcomes. Folks who own their own business have to bring in significantly more income than their college counterparts who work for private and public employers in the same field because those employers on the whole provide things like health insurance and retirement savings and pay for part of their employment taxes. I'm not convinced that someone in the trades will come out more financially secure than someone who goes the college route, even if they have a solid understanding of personal finance going in.”

Then she talked about how blending education such that the trades are not treated like a non-college track might be necessary to make that option more available, more desirable, and then finish with a recommendation to check out a book called Limits to Growth and the episode about it on a podcast called Seen on Radio.

If you look at the data, if you're just statistically pulling this apart, I know Nick Maggiulli has written some good blog posts about this, the wage premium for a college degree is still very much in play. You still really see this in the data that over a lifetime college educated people do earn more. I don't know exactly what it is now in 2025, but I feel like every year almost he reruns that analysis and every time I've seen it, he comes to the same conclusion, which is, yes, even with debt, it's still worth it. You are statistically likely to come out ahead in that decision.

Henah:

Yeah, I got to say though, Diane, thank you so much for reaching out and taking the time to, you said, face your fears.

Finally, Laisbmartins mentioned something that I had kind of brought up in the episode as well, and Kyla Scanlon's POV, that we're losing our critical thinking skills if we're only seeing higher education as a way to earn the highest income, they said, “Not addressed: Going to college is not only to make money, but to learn more. Someone could go to a free college and learn to do a trade and work on that.” Which is true, and I think as I mentioned in the episode that we did last week, I also think AI is diminishing those critical thinking skills too, and to me it's important that we keep talking about this.

Katie:

Yeah, for sure. And I think the third and final biggest theme was actually around student loans and access to credit and how that has changed over time. We heard from a few people who both are living through that debacle right now, but also folks who work as financial professionals who are working directly with people who are dealing with this.

On the student loans of it all, Henah, we heard from someone who will call Mary. Mary, we shortened this considerably for the sake of time, but she said, “I was fascinated to learn about the history of financing higher education and the connection to tuition increases. I was also reflecting on the fact that while getting a degree in medicine or another high paying field may be worth it because the salary coming out of school will allow you to pay off student loan debts rather quickly.

I am in a field where the salary coming out of school and over the course of my career, just very little to help us pay off the student loan debt accumulated to get the degree the first place. Educators are also required by law, at least in our state, to pursue continuing education credits through higher education to keep their teaching license, which means more student loans unless you work for a district with a tuition reimbursement plan.

“And yet we wonder why the number of students pursuing careers in education is declining. We already work multiple jobs to make ends meet in addition to having student loans to pay. I'm currently paying off student loans for an undergraduate and master's degree with astronomical interest rates, and I'm only able to make the minimum payments because my salary is so low. The income driven repayment plans are the only way I can afford to make payments, which are now potentially being eliminated under the current administration.

“By making the minimum payments, I'm still accruing interest and my loans continue to grow—not great for building wealth. I share all this to add another perspective to the conversation about debt and to say that going into certain fields, especially public service fields, is pretty much a guarantee that you'll have substantial debt, whether that is student loans or otherwise because you don't make the type of money to buy everything outright.

“I don't feel shame or guilt about having debt because I know the reason I took it on and I'm proud of that reason. That doesn't make it any easier to live with though, and I'm constantly thinking about how my student loan debt impacts my family and our future family. I'm ashamed to live in a country that has set up its higher education system in this way, and because of that, far fewer people are pursuing careers that will not be replaced by AI someday.”

So she was basically talking about how medical professionals, care workers, educators, these are jobs that humans have to do, but that we are directly disincentivizing more and more people from pursuing them because the economics just do not make any sense.

Henah:

I also wanted to share this email from Rich Guy Ethan. It's related. It gives us a little lesson on tuition costs that I think is worth sharing. So he said, “While I agree that as a society we are certainly too willing to push tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt on students under the guise of it being good debt, JL’ s insistence on pointing the finger at the Federal Direct Student Loan Program is misplaced, and new proposals for reforms to the student loan program included in the GOP's budget reconciliation bill only stand to put more borrowers in financial crisis without addressing any of the root causes of the current crisis.

“One of the biggest factors contributing to the rise of higher education expenses and therefore student loan balances is the defunding of state university systems. Data from the Urban Institute shows how in 1977, tuition expenses only accounted for 19% of the revenue spent on state and local higher education expenses. But by 2021, this had increased to 31%. This is largely due to significant declines in state direct appropriations per student during this period.

Of course, private university tuition has also increased significantly during this time, rising 41% between 2004 and 2024 adjusted for inflation. And this is part of a trend of the financialization of higher education, including the emergence of universities as major real estate investors and asset owners. JL pointed to the federal direct loan program as enabling these cost increases, but for dependent undergraduate students, federal direct lending is actually limited to $31,000. Obviously, this is not enough for many students to finance their education and college costs have increased far faster than those loan limits.

“This has led many parents who may not have had the ability or foresight to save any significant amount in a 529 plan to take on their own debt through Parent Plus loans. The Parent Plus loan program is unlimited and is uniquely predatory. Many students also take on private student loans to close tuition gaps. Do the loans drive up college expenses or do college expenses drive up the use of loan programs? I would think this chicken or egg question is more complex than the simple answer that was provided.

“As a financial planner, the clients I see with the largest debt loads have taken out these loans for graduate school. Sometimes this is well worth it, especially for professional programs that unlock much higher earning potential; see: doctors, other medical practitioners, lawyers, et cetera. But I've also seen folks take on $100,000+ of debt—unlimited through the Graduate Plus program—for master's degree programs that make big promises that fail to deliver sustained higher earnings.

The Federal Direct Student Loan Program has generally provided relatively flexible payment plans and forgiveness options for borrowers who intentionally chose lower paid public service oriented careers through the public service loan forgiveness program. PSLF. These programs are especially important for graduates who take less conventional jobs or who deliberately choose lower paid career options such as legal aid attorneys. These programs have been under constant attack from the right over the last few years, including Biden's signature SAVE plan that fixed longstanding issues with negative amortization and other programs that were blocked by court cases. The version of the budget reconciliation bill that the House of Representatives recently passed included a wholesale change to the income driven repayment plan instead of rolling out the poorly designed RAP plan, which has the potential to lock in borrowers in deeply unaffordable payments for up to 30 years.

“The bill also includes language that would limit graduate school borrowing up to $150,000, which has the potential to push law and medical school students towards private borrowing instead and cutting off possibilities for forgiveness, for public interest, lawyers, doctors, working at the VA, et cetera, and potentially limiting access to professional schools to students who come from wealthy backgrounds.”

Katie:

That was obviously long, but we wanted to include it because I think—I just love when our listeners do our jobs for us. Shout out Ethan.

Henah:

Thanks, Ethan.

Katie:

Note that all of those claims were linked to citations and sources, so we really crushed it, but I think it was an important thing to kind of cover because I didn't realize that public borrowing was capped. And so basically what you're seeing is people just now going to the private lending market and getting these loans that have higher interest rates and can't be forgiven.

So it's interesting to see the way that this is legislatively changing and marry Ethan's perspective as a financial professional who is working with people and sees this stuff and is following all the legislation with a perspective like the previous one that we've read, which was income driven repayment is the only way that I can pay back the loans that I needed to take out in order to work as an educator.

Henah:

Yeah, I remember when I worked in nonprofits, I looked at the PSLF and the requirements to even get my loans dismissed were insane. Even to apply is such a hassle that most people I know have never been able to get approved to have them dismissed.

So the last note for this episode, specifically regarding credit Rich Girl Molly C wrote in and said, “I had a tough time listening to the credit card story. If math serves correctly, that would be 1973, which was still before women had a legal right to their own bank accounts or to apply for a credit card and just makes me think of how much a previous generation's financial success was based on having an unpaid laborer taking care of all of home life.”

Katie:

Mmhmm. Sarah C. also picked up on that, which I will just say I am embarrassed because in the moment I did not make that connection. I just finished a grand old media tour where I was like, it wasn't until 1974 and in the moment I actually did not put those pieces together. So Sarah said, “Such a swing and a miss for JL when he was talking about the change in credit availability. I was waiting for him to say, in 1975, women couldn't even access credit, but instead it was college kids.” So there you go.

Henah:

Yeah, I hear you on the not making the connection, but in almost every conversation we have, including this one, I'll be like, darn, I wish I had said this in the moment afterwards, but that's the business of podcasting baby.

So before we head into the break, I wanted to re-acknowledge that we got so many emails and comments about this episode that I'm sad we couldn't include them all here or we'd be talking for about six hours if you didn't hear your comments here. Again, thank you so much for listening and engaging critically with the work and we'll talk about your thoughts on the other two episodes right after a quick break.

Katie:

“I've talked to some of you who flew here from Cincinnati, from Denver to be here for this event. I think Natalie said, this is my Eras tour and it means so much to me that my work means something to you.”

All right, welcome back. Let's get into the feedback for our episode with Amanda Holden about using today's economic uncertainty to build your dream life. So my goal for that episode was to really inject some hope into the feed and to think about how we could look at an objectively tough time and maybe find some semblance of opportunity, maybe a reframe for a more radical shift in our personal financial lives. And this episode was really well received. The feedback has been very touching.

Henah:

Let me tell you, I don't think I've ever needed an injection of hope in my IV drip more than right now. So if you haven't heard the episode yet, pause this one. Go listen to that episode. It really was a wonderful conversation and we got to meet the Dumpster Doggy herself at the launch party, which was amazing.

We'll start with some rapid fire that came in. So Brandon L said, “This episode is very comforting and also very informative. Thank you.” Which I agree. May wrote, “This episode is incredible, so empowering and insightful for young investors.” And then Liza M. wrote, “Loved this episode. I could listen to Amanda talk for hours.” Same.

Katie:

Yeah, I'm so glad that y'all enjoyed it. I had a really good time talking with her. I felt like we really needed the warm hug of her brilliance. Case in point, Jamie H wrote, “I'm so stoked you had Amanda on. Her course, Invested Development, changed the trajectory of my life back in 2019 or so. It set me up financially to then a few years later quit my job to travel and volunteer instead of continuing to burn out. And thank the stars for someone in investing who actually connects the dots of our financial system to our political system, to the war machines that we fund. I hadn't listened to your podcast before, Katie, but you've earned a new follower with this one. So thank you.”

Welcome Jamie. And yes, I actually, when I was writing the interview for Amanda and figuring out how to shape that conversation, I forgot about this video that she did that. I'm glad that you brought this up. She did this video that was amazing. It was, I think sometime last year or the year before about the military industrial complex. It was called Violence is Profitable and it taught me a lot that I did not know. So it's basically this idea that our defense contractors have contracts with the government of our country and other countries where the tax dollars that we send abroad for defense then have to be used to buy weapons from set American weapons manufacturers. So the way that she explained it was this is basically like a backdoor subsidy for military stocks.

Henah:

Amanda is a real one, and I think that was echoed in so many of the comments, especially the work that she's done to connect those dots and the line that she said about not wanting to lose her own humanity. And I know when she said it in the interview, Katie, you and I both had goosebumps when she said that line. We talked about it afterwards. And so on that note, Jessica wrote in and said, “Dream episode mashup. So excited you brought Amanda on to speak to the value of our money and like what the hell this is all for, including but not limited to her incredible dedication to the Dree Palestine movement and her outspoken, courageous use of her platform. We can all learn so much from her. I'm be inspired by her example also. She is so funny. Great episode.”

Katie:

She's hilarious. I love that. She was like, “When from the first moment…”

Henah:

“That first moment, I slipped my sockless foot into a boat shoe.”

Katie:

Yeah, I died.

Henah:

Me too.

Katie:

Okay. And then P echoed the sentiment saying, “I'm obsessed with Amanda, Dumpster Doggy for life. Always such a force, brave and unafraid. Hearing her speak reminds me why I admire her so much. Thank you for creating spaces for voices like hers. Thank you, Amanda, for using your platform to speak about Palestine.”

Henah:

And then PMMAHDAD or PMMAH Dad, I don’t know.

Katie:

How about PMA Dad?

Henah:

PMA dad wrote, “Love this episode so much full body goosebumps when Amanda was talking about aligning with her own humanity. It's so refreshing for financial expert and leader in this space to have the courage to speak up about the atrocities in Gaza. I'm glad you both mentioned diversifying with international indices as well. Something for me to look more deeply into.”

Katie:

Yeah, Candace said, “I'm in love with this episode. It's so refreshing to hear two progressive people talk about finances in this way. It makes it feel approachable and like I'm not a trader for investing in the empire.”

Henah:

I feel that personally.

Katie:

And now a message from our sponsor, Raytheon.

Henah:

That would be one where I have to put my foot down. So Aditto added quote, “What a beautiful episode. First time I've heard Palestine mentioned in a financial podcast in regards to not losing our humanity. Katie, I love your podcast and seeing your evolution over time.”

So obviously if you've picked up on this, a lot of these have mentioned Palestine and Gaza, which Amanda has been very outspoken about for a while. But we got this review which I think is worth addressing. It was titled “Palestine finally,” and they said, “ I'm really glad that someone in the finance space is calling out the absurdity that is not taking any financial risks to what is right, especially when you're already extremely rich. I was really happy to hear the guests talk about it. I hope that Katie, the Money with Katie Show and Morning Brew take notes.

“On the one hand, I genuinely love Katie and think she's incredibly smart. I want her to run for office. On the other hand, she has these left leaning politics that conveniently managed to evade any discussion of the moral atrocity of our time. And it's been crazy and disappointing as a fan. I have no doubt that she's limited by the powers that be, but also she has a huge platform, has the privilege of being a white woman and presumably has millions in the bank in her twenties, no less. I would love to hear her address her decision not to use her platform and to remain silent for 20 months in the next Rich girl Roundup.”

Katie, what do you think?

Katie:

Well, I understand and respect that. I think it's completely fair and I think it is what we should be asking of everybody who has a platform. I think everybody, regardless of their type of employment and whether that employment means access to a platform or not, has to do this sort of calculus of, where and how am I going to use my voice, my resources, my body to live in accordance with my moral code given whatever constraints I may have?

And so I would just say if you're interested in the full scope of my beliefs as a whole human outside of my role, in my full-time job as Money with Katie, check out the platforms that I do own and control. Like my other podcast, Diabolical Lies, which actually has a larger audience than this one does, which I started because there were a lot of subjects that I wanted to talk about that for whatever reason did not work on this show.

So a little bit of background. The Money with Katie Show is owned by another media company of which I am a full-time employee with a time defined contract that essentially editorially outlines how these platforms can and cannot be used. So I have access to these platforms, but they don't belong to me. And there are other people whose livelihoods either partially or fully rely on the Money with Katie franchise. So my decisions have consequences for people other than just me. And there are always going to be things that I care about that I'm talking about elsewhere or doing in my private life that you're probably never going to hear about on The Money with Katie Show.

But that was related to a comment from Cara who wrote in to say that she disagreed with the framing of my suggestion that Amanda's courage and advocacy was indirectly enabled by the fact that she isn't employed by another firm and living paycheck to paycheck on a six-figure salary. She said that this framing missed the point because speaking out isn't a privilege reserved for people who have already achieved wealth, but essentially a recognition of the fundamental value of human life.

And I wanted to bring that up because I agree that it should not be a privilege to be able to freely speak up, but I think in the world that we live in now where housing is at record high levels of unaffordability, your access to healthcare is tied to your employment and the majority of Americans are at will employees who can be fired at any time for any reason… I think it is. And I think that we should name that dynamic and call that for what it is because sidestepping, it does a bit of a disservice by downplaying how much that unilateral control that workplaces have affects how people behave.

Someone who is the sole provider for their family, who knows that being personally outspoken about any of the many atrocities currently or historically funded by the US government means risking losing their employment because their employer has a different stance than they do is not a person that is to me, making an uncoerced choice. That's not to say you can't personally look at that choice and be like, well, I don't respect that because I choose differently or I would choose differently. But I understand why, for example, a person whose boss is extremely pro-the current administration would probably refrain from publicizing the fact that they're going to protests or that they're going to keep their advocacy kind of behind the scenes and they're not going to bring their whole self to work, if you know what I'm saying.

So as Amanda said in the episode, I think that the last couple of years especially have really made people realize how little freedom they have to speak freely without fear of repercussions for their livelihoods. So even if you are laying groundwork to safely make that change now so you can have more freedom, I think that process takes time. And that was really all I meant in that original comment was to just be encouraging, that that level of freedom is worth fighting for. The freedom with which you can act with such moral clarity when you aren't afraid that your employer is going to punish you for it.

And not to bring the Jeff Bezos of it all back into it, but I think that this kind of highlights the broader problem in our media landscape and media ecosystem with corporate capture. And like someone mentioned Citizens United, but when the Washington Post wanted to endorse Kamala Harris and Bezos, the owner of the newspaper interfered and said, no, we aren't doing that. So I think this will continue to be a conflict of interests for as long as you have that much corporate interest, not just in politics, but in media and controlling what can and cannot be said openly.

Henah:

The one thing I really hang my own hat on is that I think my moral compass has always been very strong, and I feel like not saying anything is also a disservice to who I am and what I care about. So as Katie mentioned, we do often talk freely on our own socials and properties we own, for example, like your Diabolical Lies pod, your Substack, my Substack, about our own lives and our choices, and I always welcome any conversation there. So please feel free to reach out to us.

So in the episode we talked about using the economic uncertainty of today to pivot into what you actually want to be doing, and we heard from a few of you about that. So Spyke mentioned, “What a humbling episode. If not AI threatening the security of my job, these tariffs certainly have been. It's funny how the pandemic shifted your career change where for me, it caused me to start a small Etsy shop and turn my art into things. It's not something I can fully rely on, but it's a bit of a cushion for side income if I get laid off again.”

I love that you used this moment to create an Etsy shop. I would love if you shared it with us next time. I really love that this community can be one where we support each other's endeavors and small businesses, kind of the way that you've supported us with the blanket for Beans. So on that note, some of you may remember I talked about interior design in my new home. I'd read a letter from Meredith on the show in response to our episode about class, fashion, design, et cetera. And ultimately, we ended up talking and I hired Meredith to help with our own home interior design and she has been incredible to work with, which is just a testament to the amount of talent and the Money with Katie community. So if there are ways that we can support one another, I am all here for it. And if you want Mer's info, please let me know. I'm happy to share it.

Katie:

Then we heard from Rich Guy Leonardo P. who wrote, “Five years ago, I decided to leave my life as an economist and pursue a career as a music producer. Somehow I made my way into a big studio, but was kept at a very small salary and had to eat the leftovers from everyone else every day to make ends. I lived like this for half a year, but thanks to this lifestyle I was able to survive and eventually improve knowing I'm not the only one is somehow funny, but still low key, sad for anyone going through this right now know that it won't last forever.”

Henah:

I love that. What a kind reminder. Finally, on a tactical note on diversification, we heard from someone named Rebecca who shared, “I'm a frontline advisor at Fidelity Investments. My role has some similarities to what Amanda used to do. I take calls from clients from $0 to multimillion dollar portfolios, and it's my job to discuss investment strategy, diversification, et cetera, plus talk people off the ledge in times of volatility. And they put in parentheses, tariff announcements where we had back-to-back calls all day with people wanting to liquidate their entire life savings. Since starting in this role about a year and a half ago, a lot of personal finance advice has sat a bit uncomfortably with me. Fidelity really preaches diversification, and while I love how accessible personal finance information is online these days, it can be really harmful and misleading. I really appreciate the discussion about this reality.

“As I would say, 80 to 90% of clients will call on asking about investing in just an S&P 500 index fund. These people come from all ages and walks of life, anything from 20-year-old college students to 68-year-old women who've never saved a dollar for retirement. It takes a ton of work on our part to break through to them and explain why this strategy doesn't make sense to their personal situation. Like in the case of close to retirement folks, and unfortunately many people want to take the word of a stranger on the internet over a licensed professional education on diversification and volatility are absolutely crucial investing basics. And I wish more personal finance influencers took the time to address these topics.”

Yes, but Katie, you are one of those, what did she say—A stranger of the internet who's not a licensed financial professional. But your advice is right.

Katie:

Love to argue, always right. Put it on my tombstone.

Yeah, I think diversification, I'm happy that she mentioned that and it's always nice to get feedback from people who work in these fields who can corroborate the things that we're talking about. I think that that always makes me feel way more comfortable and that's also why I love Amanda's work because she does have that level of expertise.

So I know someone mentioned her course, Invested Development, and now helpful it was, and Amanda has very generously provided us with a code for Rich Girl Nation so that if you want to take her course, you can get a discount on doing that. And if you're interested in a quicker deep dive, just in the meantime about diversification, we do have an older episode that will link in the show notes that you can check out. And like Henah mentioned, it's also linked in Investing 101, that can help you get more familiar with how all of this works, why stocks go up in value, why diversification is so important in a more beginner friendly way. That'll hopefully give you the confidence that you need to go even further with it.

Henah, are you ready to transition to our final episode?

Henah:

Yeah, let's do it. So this last episode was an ask me anything about your first book, your questions about Rich Girl Nation from the finances of it all, to how you wrote the book, to some piping hot tea on the prevalence of ghost writing. So remember, if you hire me for $10 on Cameo, I'll tell you all this stuff that didn't make it to air.

Katie:

Yes, we met a lot of people on Wednesday last week at one of the events who said that they listened to that episode in preparation for the conversation that I had with Lindsey Stanberry and before starting to read the book itself, which was fun.

Henah:

Yeah, it was funny to meet listeners who were like, wow, we've listened to you both for years, but now we're hearing your voices in person. So hilariously DebiC27 came back to say, “I love hegemony and hubris. Don't forget supposably. I've heard K say supposably on multiple episodes.” Clocked.

Katie:

No, I have not. I literally have never said the word supposably in my life, so I will work on enunciating better, but damn, I'm like, I will own it when I say something wrong, but I've never said supposably.

Henah:

So she says, supposedly.

Katie:

Okay, alright, well then.

MHMCPA52 wrote, “My copy just came in the mail. I can't wait to read it and then make my mom read it when I'm done.” So thank you for getting a copy. Thank you for sharing it.

Henah:

It feels like the inverse of the mother and daughter who came to the 92nd Street Y talk where she was trying to make personal finance accessible for her, I want to say 13-year-old daughter, and now this is the opposite. So intergenerational relationships supporting women of all ages in their financial autonomy. Don't make me cry. Don't make me cry.

Katie:

There was someone who came on to the party who was like, I brought my parents!

Okay. And then LB said, “A third of the way through my copy. Now tangent, how does one find out if there is a mutual aid network near them?” And this is such a great question. Thank you for asking it. I just Google, I just go mutual aid near me and that's how I found things in Denver. I found a Reddit post where someone had aggregated all of the Denver mutual aid networks. So you might see that depending on where you live, but that's how I did it.

Henah:

Have you ever seen the joke about the SEO restaurant that's called “Thai Food Near Me” is the name of their restaurant. I passed it when we were in New York and I was laughing.

So I have found my own mutual aid networks in Atlanta through my neighborhood Facebook groups and word of mouth. And so another tertiary idea to that is I follow a lot of local activists and advocates in the area. And so sometimes they'll often repost opportunities nearby. So I would say social media can be really, really helpful.

Katie:

And I think that that's true in places like big cities or places where there are already places where a lot of activists live. But if you live in a smaller town and you actually can't find anything, you might consider starting one. I mean, if you're not finding one, then you might start one. That could be kind of fun. I don't know how to do that, but just throwing it out there.

And then finally we have Amy B. who picked up on our conversation around AI and said, “Yes, keep the tinfoil (critical thinking) hat on when using ChatGPT and its ilk. Generative AI works by generating strings of text statistically likely to appear by each other based on how its underlying large language model was trained to interpret prompts. It's not a source of facts, truth or knowledge, not a search engine. Its capability to identify patterns is determined by how discerning the data engineers were when training the algorithms diversity of training data and the user's prompts.”

Henah:

Yeah, it's just another level of computers aren't perfect because humans built them and they have their own biases. And so this just feels like the next iteration of that.

We did get one last comment that came in this morning actually of someone saying, my pre-order finally arrived. They're diving in. And the amount of people who posted and tagged you texted me, tagged me being like, the pre-order is finally here. And someone jokingly messaged me and they were like, my pre-order does not come in until the 19th from Bookshop. I'm also going to get the audio book. And I was like, yes, please. Thank you so much.

Katie:

Just gaming this system, gaming the numbers so hard. No, thank you very much. Thank you for your support. Thank you for listening, reading, thank you for continuing to learn, grow radicalize with us. I appreciate it.

And that is all for this edition of Rich Girl Roundup. Thanks for the thoughtful insights, the critiques. Sometimes the snark, when it's not directed at me, I love the snark when it's not directed at me, when it is directed at me, I'm a little hurt, supposably.

Henah:

She said, I didn't think the leopards would eat my face when it came to snark.

Katie:

Literally. Next week's episode, oh my God, I'm so excited. It features the one and only guest I think I've ever been genuinely star struck by

Henah:

Katie, when we went to go meet Jonathan Van Ness, you said, yes, you can join me, but you have to be cool.

Katie:

I was like, play it cool, don't fan girl over him.

Henah:

And I was like, alright, I'll be cool until the interview's over and then I'll be a fan girl. Then this guest came on the show and Katie was like, and I told you to be cool. And here I am, literally schvitizing talking to this person. I can't even make coherent sentences. So.

Katie:

Except the thing is I decided that the only way that I was going to be able to do that interview well is if I just approached it completely selfishly and just asked her about the things that I wanted to talk to her about. And like y'all are coming along for the ride, so I do think you're going to enjoy it.

Our show is a production of Morning Brew and is produced by Henah Velez and me, Katie Gatti Tassin, with our audio engineering and sound design from Nick Torres. Devin Emery is President of Morning Brew content and additional fact-checking comes from Scott Wilson.

“That is why the end of the book, the conclusion is called Invite Your Friends because my entire career has been based on the belief that we actually do have a responsibility to one another to share this information with other people and help other people along the way, especially women, so that they can build wealth and security in a world that would probably prefer that they didn't. And it really takes a village. So thank you to my village.”