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Rich Girl BT wrote in saying, "We talk more money with friends—but once they know the salary, they'll hold it against you. For example, they'll say, 'You can afford $750 for two nights at my wedding.' But I don't want to spend that." So, how do we navigate these situations in an attempt to be more transparent about finances?

Welcome back to #RichGirlRoundup, Money with Katie's weekly segment where Katie and MWK's Executive Producer Henah answer your burning money questions. Each month, we'll put out a call for questions on her Instagram (@moneywithkatie). New episodes every week.

*Credit: Instrumental Sopranos theme music from Justin Canton.

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Henah:

So you're rich.

Katie:

I am head Rich Girl, right?

Henah:

You’re chief Rich Girl.

Katie:

I’m chief Rich Girl.

Henah:

Chief Rich Girl Officer.

Katie:

Chief Rich Girl Officer.

Henah:

Yeah, there it is.

Katie:

Welcome back, Rich Girls and Boys to the Rich Girl Roundup weekly discussion of The Money with Katie Show. As always, I'm your host Katie, and every Monday my executive producer, Henah, and I use this segment to talk through listener questions, interesting money stories in the news, and, I'll say, more casual financial topics. Here's a quick message from our sponsors before we get into it.

This week's upcoming main episode of the show is about living abroad and the finances associated. So whether that means living your best life in Thailand for a few months or retiring in Italy like Henah’s eventual dream. We have two guests who are going to help us break this down, what that experience is like, how we handle money, taxes, et cetera, and some pretty hefty tax breaks you might be able to take advantage of. Okay. Onto the roundup.

Henah:

This week's conversation topic came from someone whose initials are BT. They said, quote, We talk more money with friends, but once they know the salary, they'll hold it against you, for example. Yeah. For example, they'll say, you can afford $750 for two nights at my wedding, but I don't want to spend that. End quote. Which… fair. So I think this makes for a really interesting conversation because in our general larger efforts to be more open about money, we often start to judge one another's financial choices or act as if we know something is in someone's budget when it's not always the case.

Katie:

Well, I'm going to be so real with you. The first thing that came to mind for me was that conversation you and I had…

Henah:

Oh, going to get dragged.

Katie:

A few months ago. Yeah. Prepare yourself. About you had some acquaintances who I think you knew, I don't know how you know this, so maybe you can shed some light on this, but you knew these people who knew these people who made over $400,000 a year in household income who hosted a dinner party, but then asked everyone to, was it to Venmo for the food or something?

Henah:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This is coming back to me. We have friends who have friends who are very, very high earners, and they said that they were asked to Venmo for pizza at a get together, and I personally thought that was hilarious, but also a little bit uncomfortable because I think it's different if you're the one hosting to ask other people to bring food, especially when those people know that you are higher earners. Not because I think there's anything wrong with a potluck, but I think it's different to, I love a potluck, your girl loves a potluck, but it's just weird to be like, I bought this pizza and we live in this $2 million home. Can you now Venmo me…

Katie:

$4.08.

Henah:

Five dollars. Yeah. For your slice.

Katie:

Yeah. Well, it's funny because I do think it's like it's human nature to perceive some behavior as stingy in a vacuum and in some cases in this case, okay, I'll just say it. I do think that's a little bit silly to have people over for pizza in your $2 million house and then ask people to Venmo you $5 each. It's just a little bit, come on.

Henah:

That’s all I’m saying.

Katie:

Yeah. I mean, if you feel differently, email in. If you're like, no, they're grinders; they're on that grind set and you're just not on their level—tell me. Right, like I'm open to being wrong about this, but I do think that in an instance like that where it's so egregious then… but I think the question gets at this interesting downside risk of more financial transparency and how situations like this kind of highlight the collateral damage of being open about money with other people.

Henah:

Yeah. I feel like context is key or context is everything in this, because it's one thing to say, oh, I make X amount of money, but I usually try to say, if I tell someone, oh, I make X amount of money. I try to add some color of what that looks like in my life and how that actually plays out.

Katie:

Can you give me an example of that? How would that actually go, that conversation?

Henah:

Yeah. I've been talking with a couple friends of my income journey throughout the years and I've said at this point, I'm really trying to play catch up with aggressive retirement contributions. So my take home pay is not what my salary is and it's very different. Or for example, my husband and I have supported his family's education in some ways, and that's not something that we broadcast to everybody.

Katie:

Except for right now on this broadcast.

Henah:

Except for right now because we're such good people.

Katie:

You’re like, well, you asked.

Henah:

You did. It is just instances of when that budget is tighter than you might initially think because there's these things you may not know about. And I also know a lot of people who, I know somebody who's making $400,000, and at first I was like, oh my God, that's amazing. They're a lawyer or whatever, but they're actually paying for their entire mother and aunt's lifestyles as well because they have disabilities and can't work, or I know a lot of people who are supporting their family back home in their native country.

So I think I'm trying to add that color, so I don't assume, and other people don't assume, but to your point, there is sort of this, well, I don't know. You still could afford a hundred dollars for this dinner or $200 for this other thing.

Katie:

Yeah. I mean, the wedding example is a good one. The 750 bucks of, well, my friends know I'm just going to be glib. My friends know I'm rich, so they're like, I want you to come to my wedding and I know you can afford it. And I'm thinking, oh, but speaking in third person as the questioner, by the way, this is not me speaking, but—

Henah:

I was like, so you're rich.

Katie:

I'm head Rich Girl. Right? No, I'm just kidding.

Henah:

You are chief Rich Girl.

Katie:

That is true. I'm Chief Rich Girl Officer.

Henah:

Chief Rich Girl Officer. Yeah, there it is.

Katie:

So anyway, with that example, I think that this might be an opportunity to have deeper financial conversations and take things a step further. So you're not just talking about decontextualized cold data, but you're talking about your priorities too and what else is going on in your financial life. I think that's where the value of talking about money really is because we tell people, oh, talk about money, which is a good thing. It's a helpful thing. It helps people understand, Hey, I might be underpaid. Oh, hey, I'm not the only one suffering from rent increases, or I'm not the only one who's struggling to save, or I'm not the only one with aggressive goals.

But we don't often go that step further and talk about how to do it well, and it reminds me a little bit of the sex positivity movement that when that started, there was a lot of encouragement to de-stigmatize the topic of sexuality as this dirty thing and be able to talk openly about it, and conversations about consent and all of those things became a lot more out in the open. But that doesn't mean you show up to a meeting and start regaling all your coworkers about your sexual preferences. That's the time, place and manner piece of it that we have to know how to do these things well, and I think it's a muscle we have to build and a skill we have to practice.

Henah:

I think there's also the sensitivity read the room kind of thing where…

Katie:

For sure.

Henah:

I think you have to bring that lens of… there were friends of mine who make far more than my husband and I do, and they know that, and then they messaged me and they were like, I don't know. I feel like my money just doesn't go as far anymore. I feel like I'm poor. And I was like, respectfully, I'm not the person you should say this to.

Katie:

Yeah, the framing,

Henah:

I think part of it was like, I think they thought I was going to be like, yeah, yeah, I understand. Because personal finance. But then I also was as a human who makes considerably less than you.

Katie:

Totally. Well, and that's in the framing. I have a friend, that voice noted me the other day. She's like, Hey, I had this dinner last night with some friends in town. I'm feeling really weirdly about it. She was telling me how she was talking with one of her friends who's very driven, and this friend has had a really successful career so far, and that this person was talking about how they were taking a pay cut in order to switch companies that they had been at a really high flying startup and now they're going to a different startup and that they're taking this pay cut. And I guess my friend had said something that was intended to be encouraging about, oh, well, this new role is going to grow you in other ways or something of that nature.

And I think that her friend probably didn't mean anything by it, but she started talking about the new salary in a way that implicated it as being really low and insufficient, and it was still way more than my friend made. And so my friend kind of felt uncomfortable sitting there being like, oh, so if you feel that way about your money, what must you think about me and my career? I don't make anywhere near as much as that.

Henah:

That’s how I felt.

Katie:

Exactly. And so I think that to your point about sensitivity and reading the room, I think it comes down to: Is the way that I'm discussing this and we all make mistakes, I have done this as well completely inadvertently, is the way that I'm discussing this going to make this friend feel badly about themselves? Am I be inconsiderate about how this is going to sound to them before I'm maybe complaining or I am talking about an amount of money in a way that's going to make somebody feel badly about it?

Henah:

Well, I think that the larger question is what is the purpose of you sharing? Why are you telling people? Is it to build camaraderie over a shared societal thing, like the cost of childcare? Is it because you're all in the same boat or is it because you're trying to subtly flex or outwardly flex?

Katie:

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to go to your friends and be like, look what I did. I'm so proud of this. It's just say that I'm looking for support. I feel really proud of myself right now because of how far I've come, and I never thought I would achieve this. I think that tone to me feels very different than I'm subtly, I'm saying this as a flex, but I'm trying to downplay it as though it's at NBD.

Henah:

Yeah. When I got my promotion recently, I texted people and I knew people who were making less, and I just said, if this is not something you feel comfortable talking about, that's totally fine, but I'm really excited I hit this goal and you've seen how my trajectory to get here and you know that I was underpaid severely for a long time and they were thrilled for me. And I think it genuinely came from a place of they understand while also recognizing that I'm not trying to rub it in their face, that that's not where they're at currently.

And I think it's the same thing with, I would love to spend $750 to come to your wedding for two nights, but that is not something that's in my budget right now because I have these other things going on, and I don't know, just taking the assumption out of it I think is the best thing you can do when you're trying to make these deeper financial conversations.

Katie:

Totally, and I like that you mentioned talking to a friend about it because I do think you used a phrase earlier, which is read the room. That I think is really crucial that your friend that just got laid off is probably not the first person that you should go to be like, I got a promotion!

Henah:

Mhm.

Katie:

The same way that your friend that just got broken up with is not the friend you're going to go to be like, I'm so excited that my boyfriend proposed. Yes, they're probably going to be happy for you. But there is a certain level of, I think sensitivity and awareness that is just nice to keep top of mind because at the end of the day, we are all on some level a little selfish. Our own human experience is the one that we are living inside all the time, and so I think that when we talk about, okay, go talk about money, go be open. Sometimes I think that directive sounds like carte blanche. Go scream it from the rooftops with no consideration.

And so that is absolutely not to say that that's what this person was doing. I think that this question just opened the door for this conversation because I think they're absolutely right. Just talking about it without that additional context, prioritization, sensitivity filter could totally lead to people being like, well, why are you Venmoing me for pizza? You make $400,000 a year.

Henah:

I am glad you're still thinking about that story so many months later.

Katie:

It made me be like, should I be Venmoing people for pizza? I mean, shoot.

Henah:

No. No, you should not. I feel like we've brought up the situation of your friends making a lot and then making you feel bad, but then there's people who make a lot and are generous with that, and I think you are an example of that.

Katie:

Oh, well thank you. I appreciate that. I try.

Henah:

I mean, when you Venmo me a lump sum when I was going to Asia on a vacation for a nice dinner, I was like, what? Who does this?

Katie:

Well, that was like two years ago too, though. I haven't Venmo’ed you lately.

Henah:

Yeah, you're richer since then and I've got nothing.

Katie:

I know, I haven't Venmo’ed you a lump sum in a while.

Henah:

Can you do that? My birthday's coming up.

Katie:

You’re dropping a hint. You said, that was cool. Do that again. That feels good. Let's move on to this week's money story.

Henah:

Money story. Okay, so I have gone to extreme lengths to hide these stories from Katie so that we get her ultimate reaction. This is a short and sweet one, but I just know the rage that's going to come out of you. So I'm really excited.

Katie:

Oh God, okay.

Henah:

This came from Carolyn V or Caroline V. They said, “My boss told me I was not promoted and would not be because one day I'll have a kid, but I've never once said anything about wanting kids to him. I'm not married and I have no plans for it.”

Katie:

Jail. Immediately, jail. Actually though, if your boss dead ass said that to you, I'm not promoting you because you're going to become a mother: Lawyer up. That is illegal. Illegal. That is discrimination on the basis of what? Gender or sex.

Henah:

I wish that we still did this show on YouTube so you could see the face that Katie made when I originally read the story where her jaw was on the floor. But yeah, that seems wild, but also maybe get out of there.

Katie:

Also, can someone tell this boss like, no baby. You're not supposed to say that part out loud. We all know people are discriminating in this way. It's not a secret. He should be nervous and agreed. Get the heck out of there for sure, or at least off that dude's team if you are obsessed with the company and the job.

But I actually was talking to my dad about this over a family vacation we went on a couple months ago. He was in management at a big company, the same company for his whole career. Oh, Chris, that's right. Chrissy, Chrissy.

Henah:

Chrissy, Chrissy Moltisanti Gatti.

Katie:

Can we get a Sopranos drop a little…?

Henah:

Just two Joisey girls.

Katie:

He said at the beginning of his career, he remembered conversations amongst male managers who would outwardly discuss with one another that they were not going to promote a woman because she either had children already or there was a concern that she was of childbearing age and that was openly discussed and that he's like, toward the end of my career, you could tell people were still thinking that way. They just weren't saying it out loud anymore. It was no longer okay to do so to talk about that openly, but he was like, that was definitely a thing.

Henah:

It's crazy though because parents are the biggest superheroes of all of us. They're the kings of multitasking and getting shit done more than anybody.

Katie:

Well, that's an incredibly beautiful Pollyanna sentiment about this.

Henah:

I mean, they shouldn't have to.

Katie:

I'm more so looking at this going, oh, I was unaware. Only one half of the population became parents. Interesting how that works. I'm assuming it's the maternity leave aspect that people are, they don't want to have to pay for a maternity leave, the parental leave that one parent has to take in order to create new life, but the double standard is egregious.

Henah:

Do you think this is also happening in Europe where they have a yearlong parental leave policy?

Katie:

I doubt it is happening as much. I'm not going to say it never happens. I'm sure it does, but…

Henah:

In France, it doesn't happen. This is the norm

Katie:

That everyone's taken a year off.

Henah:

Yeah. Yeah.

Actually, I had dinner with somebody who's from France and they were like, I don't know where that rumor comes from because everyone I know who's from France actually worked so hard, and I was like, oh, we definitely did not talk about this on the show and say that you guys strike all the time…

Katie:

You're under the table deleting the episode where we're like, y'all get three months of paid vacation. What are you striking over?

Henah:

Must be nice.

Katie:

Just kidding. Alright, cool. Well, I think that calls it for today. So that is all for this week's Rich Girl Roundup. We're going to see you on Wednesday to talk about living or retiring in another country outside of the ol’ US of A.