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If Katie could only recommend 3 books to the Rich Girl audience, which would she share? Katie and Henah talk through each of her top recs (as well as some honorable mentions) and how they've changed her approach to personal finance.

Welcome back to #RichGirlRoundup, Money with Katie's weekly segment where Katie and MWK's Executive Producer Henah answer your burning money questions. Each month, we'll put out a call for questions on her Instagram (@moneywithkatie). New episodes every week.

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Our show is a production of Morning Brew and is produced by Henah Velez and Katie Gatti Tassin, with our audio engineering and sound design from Nick Torres. Devin Emery is our Chief Content Officer and additional fact checking comes from Kate Brandt.

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Mentioned in the Episode:

• Quit Like a Millionaire by Kristy Shen and Bryce Leung

• The Nordic Theory of Everything by Anu Partnanen

• The Privatization of Everything by Donald Cohen and Allen Mikaelian

• Maid by Stephanie Land

• Getting Me Cheap by Amanda Freeman and Lisa Dodson

• Trick Mirror by Jia Tolentino

• Deep Work by Cal Newport

• On Work by Derek Thompson

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Henah:

Which books would you give an honorable mention when it comes to understanding that dichotomy or how women exist within this space?

Katie:

Lean In by Sheryl... No, I'm just kidding. There's this book called Girl Boss by Sophia… [inaudible 00:00:18].

Intro:

Rich Girl Roundup. Love it.

Katie:

Welcome back, Rich Girls and Boys to the Rich Girl Roundup Weekly Discussion of the Money with Katie Show. As always, I'm your host, Katie Gatti Tassin, and every Monday morning my executive producer Henah and I are going to dig into an interesting money discussion. Here's a quick message from the sponsors of this segment.

All right, before we get into today's roundup, this week's upcoming main episode is about teacher pay and I guess I would say the way we value or don't value educators in the United States and the fraught history and debate in this subject matter. It's going to be a good one, a good deep dive. We've got a lot of actual teachers from Rich Girl Nation that are supporting this episode with their own experiences, so it's going to be great. All right, onto the roundup. Henah, how you doing today?

Henah:

I'm okay. I don't know if our audience remembers, but you were pretty sick for two plus weeks recently and I think you have virtually passed it to me, because now I just recovered from the flu. I sound a little nasally, but I'm excited for the question. Because I think we'll hear a lot of good nuggets from you, so I'm just going to dive right in.

Katie:

Amazing. Hit us with the question.

Henah:

This week's question came from Ashley F, what are your favorite book recommendations right now when it comes to money and personal finance? And I'm really excited about this because I often read just fiction and you primarily focus in the nonfiction space and at the end of every year, Morning Brew gives us a credit to go learn X, Y, Z things. And so I used to go to your website-

Katie:

Oh yeah, I kind of forgot about that.

Henah:

I also forget about it until the end of the year, but it came to mind because last year I ended up going to your book recommendations page on the website and ordering the money books that you recommended with my credit.

Katie:

Really? That's so funny.

Henah:

The downside is I have not actually read a single one of them yet, but I will get to it.

Katie:

Oh Henah.

Henah:

I live and breathe this 40 hours a week. I don't want my free time to-

Katie:

Yeah, I guess you probably already get enough personal finance content in your life, you are maybe not the right candidate for more of it.

Henah:

I get a lot of the nuggets just distilled from you so that I don't have to read the books. I think what we could do is I'm going to ask you a question for each category of book and then you can share the books that you most recommend and then I think that we're updating our books page on the website so that folks can go find all of your recommendations there.

Katie:

Yeah, I think this is going to be a larger endeavor for us because we tend to review and talk about books pretty frequently in The Rich Girl Roundup or Fun Finds section of the newsletter every week, but there hasn't been any one location where we've been keeping a running list with a one-liner about whether we recommend it or not. So that is going to be a larger project I think as part of our phase three refining of our website. But that's something that we've heard enough interest now that I'm like, all right, we got to give the people a book recs section.

Henah:

I think we hear probably a couple of times a week actually what are the reads that Katie recommends and I say, subscribe to the newsletter if you want to know in real time.

Katie:

She's like, "Give me your email address and I'll tell you."

Henah:

The first bucket is, there are a lot of personal finance books out there, there's I'll Teach You to be Rich by Ramit Sethi. There's Financial Freedom, there's Choose FI. I'm sure all those books are excellent, but what one book stands out to you in this bucket that's maybe a little less conventional?

Katie:

I think overall, because you're right, I think all of those books are great for different reasons and I'd also add, I know people love Millionaire Next Door, people love Psychology of Money, there's a lot of those kind of bestseller type personal finance books. To me, if you said, "I'm only going to read one." What is the one personal finance book that I should read? I actually really, especially for the financial independence, retire early curious crowd, I read this in 2020, it's called Quit Like A Millionaire by Kristy Shen and Bryce Leung. Now, they, I think, do a really excellent job of covering content that's just not in the other personal finance books, or it's in them, but it's grazed over. They go very deep and I actually quite enjoy her... I think she's kind of the primary writer of it or that's how the book is written.

It's written in first person, if memory serves, but I really enjoy her writing style and her narrative storytelling. Also, and I believe she describes it this way, she grew up in abject poverty in communist China, which I think makes her a very reliable personal finance expert because she's advising on a lot of things that she actually had to overcome. She'll talk about how when she was little, her one toy that she had was like a used coke can, and that there were used needles and contaminated water and they were swimming in rivers of raw sewage. Just stuff where I think as someone that grew up in the United States in the middle class or upper middle class, I can't even wrap my head around it. So going from that to coming to the United States, she's really walked the talk in a big way.

Henah:

I'm guessing she's now a millionaire.

Katie:

Yes. It's very inspiring and she's just very grounded. Anyone that reads this I think would learn a lot. It informed a lot of my, I would say, baseline or default assumptions and just a few novel principles about financial independence that I haven't really seen elsewhere. She addresses the first couple years of early retirement or retirement more generally and how that's typically that five-year window when big market crashes have the biggest impact on the long-term feasibility of your portfolio outlasting you. And so she talks about things like... I think they call it the cash cushion that I can't totally remember the little name she gives it, and the yield shield, which was some dividend, something or other bonds that they were going to use in the first couple of years so they weren't touching principle in their stock and their equity investments just to make sure that they didn't end up drawing down and getting themselves into hot water. Pretty interesting stuff and delivered in a way that I think most people would enjoy. So that is Quit Like A Millionaire by Kristy Shen.

Henah:

It strikes me as a storytelling balanced with tactical takeaways. Does that seem accurate?

Katie:

Yes, I think that's accurate. I think you'll get pretty much everything you need from that one.

Henah:

One thing for me, Katie, that I really admire about you is how often you will tie together individualized concepts or goals that we're told to aim for with these broader societal and cultural lenses. For example, our Hot Girl Hamster Wheel reflection or the way millennials are told to save for a down payment, but there's record low affordability and even supply. Budgeting for healthcare within an exploitative system. All these different examples that you helped to shine a light on. So what read would you say or one book has helped you see the world differently or maybe even more optimistically?

Katie:

My favorite book that made me see the world totally differently is called The Nordic Theory of Everything.

Henah:

I've heard you reference this one a lot.

Katie:

All the time by Anu Partanen. And she is a Finnish woman who moved from Finland to New York City because she fell in love with someone that she met at a conference. And so she moved to his town of Manhattan and-

Henah:

Manhattan?

Katie:

Manhattan. And it basically explores the difference between the United States and Scandinavian countries and her home country of Finland in particular, but more broadly these Nordic states. And I really enjoyed it, I think, for a few reasons. I would say for me personally, growing up with a pretty US-centric point of view or that American exceptionalism, if you will, where I remember being told my whole life, "You live in the greatest country on earth. You're so lucky to live here." It painted this very... Is it the South Park founders that have the Team America World police? That was like the viewpoint that I very much had as a kid. And so-

Henah:

I know the american cap that says, "Back to back World War champs," was a lot when I was younger.

Katie:

That ethos of, America is the best and everything that we do here is the best way to do it and everyone else should do what we do. And I think it wasn't until very recently, even as an adult, that I started to understand how things like what you've mentioned, how the healthcare system really pretty actively disadvantages people and is pretty exploitative how we approach higher education and how expensive it is here and how there's, I learned this phrase today, rat king going on where it's just a mess behind the scenes. It's a rat king of higher education. All the tails are tied together and it's hard to... Is it the government's fault? Is it the higher institution? The lack of childcare and kind of this individualist every man for himself, bootstrap mentality and just the downsides of those things and how it can actually create a lot of pain and suffering.

And so this book, I think really opened my eyes and particularly to the Nordic way of life, which not to say that that's perfect either, but she explores it through the lens of four key relationships. It's parents and their children, men and women, employers and their employees, and then government and citizens. She makes this very compelling case that in some ways the Nordic people are, quote, unquote, "freer" than Americans are. And she asks, "What is freedom?" Americans are obsessed with freedom and this idea of being free, and she's like, "Well, are you really free if you can't leave your job because then you don't have healthcare? Are you really free if you're spending 40% of your take home pay on childcare?" And so you're in this kind of rat race. God, lots of rat metaphors today.

And the way that she approaches it is not as harshly as I'm restating it and paraphrasing it now, but she really debunks this idea of the socialist nanny state. And I pulled this quote, "For the citizens of the Nordic countries, the most important values in life are individual self-sufficiency and independence in relation to other members of the community." How can you be in marriages, and employment relationships, and in relationship with your parents and your children that are based in love and are based in you choosing to be there and independence and self-sufficiency, versus this in enmeshed web of your reliance on your employer for this? And then your parents don't have elder care, so they have to rely on you and live in your house. And it's interesting.

Henah:

Can I push back a little? I have a clarifying question maybe.

Katie:

Yeah.

Henah:

When we've talked a little bit about the Nordic approach to life, we've gotten some feedback from folks that maybe the Nordic way of life is also not perfect, which you alluded to, and that maybe there's a sense of us fantasizing or glorifying their way of life. Do you feel like it addresses that angle at all as well in the book?

Katie:

Yeah, I do because I think it's interesting food for thought in the sense that it opened me up to imagining how a better system could work in the US and how maybe the way that we are doing it isn't the way we'd have to be doing it. There's an interesting interview that Anu did with Nick Hanauer on Pitchfork Economics called Capitalism is Working Better in Finland, and it's about the idea that when people feel independent from employers, they're able to be more innovative, they're able to start companies. That capitalism functions better in a society where people don't feel as though they're hanging on by the skin of their teeth, and precarity could wipe the floor out from under them at any moment, which I think is really interesting.

Henah:

It strikes me because last week when we did the behind the scenes of Money with Katie, you and I were talking about how money with Katie grew and you said the only reason that Hen and I have been able to get health insurance is because Morning Brew was able to hire us as an acqui-hire situation. It is interesting to think, would you have become bigger or more successful had we not had to worry about our health insurance and benefits and all of those things being tied? The only reason we were able to do those things is because they were offered by another employer.

Katie:

It does certainly affect people's employment decisions in the current paradigm, and I know we're really hitting that key example, but I just think it's a very pertinent one for people because depending on where you live, and this is I think another point that I want to include here and why I think this book is interesting, the piece of common pushback that I hear a lot is that the reason the US could not operate that way is because Nordic countries are so much smaller and that Norway has 5 million people. And so people will point to that and say, "Well, we're just too big." But what I think is really interesting is that most of how the US is governed is actually more at the local and state level.

For example, someone that needs healthcare in New York City actually I think can get it pretty cheaply, at least from friends that I've talked to that are self-employed in New York, but the tax rate in New York is much higher, but they can get it. Whereas think the state of Texas, and I think it's pretty impossible to qualify for Medicaid in Texas, it's very hard to get subsidized health insurance there. The point that I'm trying to make, and if each state government or even at the local level adopted some of these principles, it would be interesting to see. It's not that like at the federal or national level you'd have to solve for these things, but each state could learn a lot really from the way that a country like Norway, or Finland, or Sweden is governed. In some cases you're talking about a size comparison that's a little more comparable, and it really reflects the way the EU treats its countries.

Henah:

It reminds me of some smaller cities that are testing out universal basic income or even the way that teachers... We were researching our teacher pay episode, how every state has a different mandate for how pensions work and how that ultimately leads to differences in financial, but also happiness factors in people in those states.

Katie:

I just think it could be interesting. I like that concept of imagining the better future and looking to other countries or other places, other civilizations that have solved for this and going, "Well, there is a playbook." It's not like we'd have to really reinvent the wheel. We'd have to figure out what it would look like here, but that key relationship of government and citizens, what is the role? People have differing opinions about what the government really owes its people, but I think that usually when people think about this, they're thinking nationally, they're thinking the federal government, which yeah, I understand why there's not a whole lot of trust in the federal government in the US. I understand why people feel that way or why people bristle up the idea of paying higher taxes and we're not really getting anything for it or there's a lot of inefficiency.

And I think that there's a lot of trust in countries like Finland. They believe that their government knows what they're doing, and so they feel, I think, more apt to give them the money to do it. They get the benefits and they feel that they're getting a lot for their tax dollars.

Henah:

I wonder if people here would also just be more trusting of a state government then to your point, than the federal one. It seems like this is the eye-opener for you in terms of moving from individualized problems to collective solutions and that things like scale and culture have really shifted how you thought. Is there a third book that you would recommend that's focused more on American culture that has been influential to you, or just about things that are more present here in the US that you would recommend?

Katie:

And I think that there's... What I really like about that former book, and I think it's going to bleed into this answer, but sometimes when we have these types of conversations, you get into this weird push-pull of collectivism versus individualism, and I think that there are merits to both. Believing that you as an individual have personal agency and autonomy and can affect change is a very powerful belief, it drives people to strive, and I think that that's a good thing. I like that the way that Anu talks about it is that the collective can power the individual and vice versa, that there's this sense of a yin and yang and how you can achieve that best of both worlds by taking the power away from, we'll say corporatism, and having it be more of a publicly accountable governing body that's providing you with these things. You have more of a impact on how society grows and flourishes.

In that same vein, I like this book called The Privatization of Everything by Donald Cohen and Allen... I'm not sure how to say his last name, I think it's Mikaelian. But it's basically about how the private sector has taken over public goods in the US and why that's bad for Americans, and how we've had this cultural shift from thinking of ourselves as citizens to consumers. And how having to... You basically have to pay for what you need with your tax dollars and then have a corporation sell it back to you, so you're paying for it twice, is the idea.

And this book just made me think really differently about this common refrain that I always heard and repeated, which is, "That's really inefficient. We should privatize it." We should make the private sector handle it because it'll be more efficient, they'll do a better job. And that used to work well until the government got involved. What the authors of this book would say is that it's the relationship between our government and the private for-profit entities that's creating a lot of the issues we have today in a way that straightforwardly government programs and straightforwardly private entities don't really do.

I think of it like you're almost mixing the scale and budget of government with the profit motive of private, and it just distorts the free market thing that's supposed to be happening. Think like student lending. A good example of this is in the book they talk about how there was an issue following the 2008 crash, the great recession, where the city of Chicago needed money and they basically sold all of their parking meters to private investors, and now these private investors have a 75-year lease on the parking meters in Chicago and have the city in a really bad position because they own the public parking.

Henah:

It's the monopoly of public parking.

Katie:

Right. By a for-profit entity. And so they just show how the city got a really bad deal on that, but now it's a 75-year lease. Now they can raise the rates whenever they want, the city has no control over it. It's just a mess. There were examples of water being sold to private interests in places, but even my PG&E bill I think is a good example. This is a private company with shareholders that is providing a public good, it's a necessary service. They have this very complex relationship with the government. I'm actually reading a different book about that right now called California Burning, about the wildfires and PG&E's role in the wildfires and some of the lawsuits that came out of it. But our first electric bill, they charged 50 cents a kilowatt-hour as opposed to 11 cents. So we have like a thousand dollars electric bill for a single month.

Henah:

That's crazy.

Katie:

They have a monopoly. You don't really have a choice. Where we live, you have to use PG&E, so they can charge you whatever they want. And I totally recognize too that it's not as straightforward and simple as maybe I'm painting it out to be at. There's a lot going on beneath the scenes and I think people could point to straightforwardly government entities and find problems with them too, but it really highlights the twisted incentive that happens when you have government funding a private for-profit entity, and I would say it's very eyeopening, I think, in that sense. There's a lot of good examples.

Henah:

Did you feel like you agreed with all the examples in the book after reading it or whatever their thesis was?

Katie:

One piece of criticism I would have is that it is very case study heavy, it is a lot of case studies examples where public goods and private interests collide. It's very good for understanding maybe specific issues, but I do think that in some ways I walked away with a bit of a core concern that while the governing bodies and the way that they're currently set up still leave a lot to be desired, I'm not sure that just giving all the money and putting all the power back into the hands of government entirely...

I don't know that would really, quote, unquote, "fix it." Because I still think there's probably a great deal of corruption and there are flaws in the way that the government currently runs. That would maybe be a bit of pushback and that's not a reason to not read it or not a reason to not try to fix it, but it's good to be aware of these things. And I do think that there was maybe one comment that sticks out to me. I remember reading it and they referenced the 529 account as an example of education being privatized, or how this is a tool for the wealthy, and the way it was framed, it struck me as a little bit of a stretch in that moment where I was like, "I don't know that I agree with that."

Henah:

Do you think the issue maybe instead of the existence of a 529 is a lack of knowledge about a 529

Katie:

Or that you have to have a special investment account to be able to afford higher education in the first place.

Henah:

I see.

Katie:

I think that maybe that was where they were trying to go with that, but the framing of a 529 account as a tool of the wealthy, elite corrupt, I was like, "I don't know that that's really a fair assessment of what's happening here." But I would agree that it's messed up and backwards that you have to save hundreds of thousands of dollars if you want to go to college, or if you want to go to a state institution, which again, same principle, publicly funded university still costing you... What? 15,000 in state a year on average or whatever the figure is.

Henah:

My husband had to pay for all of his college, and I think he said he graduated with 70,000 in student loans and it was a public university.

Katie:

In the state where he lived?

Henah:

Yeah, it was Rutgers.

Katie:

Yeah, there you go. Perfect example. 70K to go to your state publicly funded university.

Henah:

Which I was very lucky in that I had a good number of scholarships, but I also had student debt leaving school, and I thought about that a lot, about how it sets people up to be behind for decades if they have to pay for access to decent education.

Katie:

And can I tell you too that it does go back to the Nordic theory of everything piece on education where if you educate a populace, if you want to give people the tools they need to have the type of job that's going to enable them to break a cycle, that putting it behind this really steep paywall is not the way to... It's the argument about social mobility and how it's actually quite difficult to ascend to a different class, or if you grow up in the bottom 20% of income households, it's like one in five makes it to the top 20 percentile, I think.

Henah:

Yeah, I think that that makes a lot of sense. If I had to guess, I would say that you probably read 20 to 30 books a year, and I'm going to rapid fire a few last questions for you, on reads that maybe didn't fit any of these broad buckets that we addressed that maybe you still want to give a little bit of a shout-out to. One thing we've talked about on the show a lot is just the intersection of women in personal finance or what does it mean to be a feminist within the personal finance space? Which books would you give an honorable mention when it comes to understanding that dichotomy or how women exist within this space?

Katie:

Lean In by Sheryl... No, I'm just kidding. There's this book called Girl Boss by Savannah [inaudible 00:26:29].

Henah:

Never heard of it.

Katie:

Two come to mind right off the bat. Maid by Stephanie Land.

Henah:

She has another book coming out, correct?

Katie:

She does. It's called Class. We're going to talk to her about it on the show, little teaser. I'm excited to talk to her. And you've probably seen Maid on Netflix, if you haven't read the book, but that book and Getting Me Cheap by Amanda Freeman and Lisa Dodson, who we also have talked to on the show before. Both of those books really helped me more fully understand how difficult it is for women in particular to escape poverty and how the cycle is pretty ensnaring for women because of the expectation with, I would say, gender roles that women will be primary caretakers. And so I think Getting Me Cheap did a really good job of illustrating how young women that grow up as children in homes that are very low income end up being caretakers for younger siblings or shouldering a lot of responsibility in the household that their brothers maybe more often do not.

And so then that interferes with their ability to get an education and get themselves out of the cycle than they very often end up having children of their own relatively young or adopting siblings when they're very young. And so it was just a very eyeopening and data made being more narrative about one person's experience with domestic violence, financial abuse, and really fighting hard to get out of poverty. And then the other being more of a data rich deep dive into the subject by two researchers, but both really good. I'll throw in Trick Mirror by Jia Tolentino, that more from a writing standpoint I've read it like five times. I just love the essays in that book. I think she is a really masterful writer and I really like her take on what it means to be a woman and these topics that are very zeitgeisty, but she just captures it really well.

Henah:

I'm thinking like Haley Nahman, Anne Helen Petersen, those writers as well stick out as ones that we've referenced on the show a lot too. Is there a book that has changed your approach to work or working?

Katie:

I think the one that sticks out the most is Deep Work by Cal Newport. It just has some interesting insights about what makes work fulfilling and how to structure your life around that, because-

Henah:

I feel like there are a lot of books, though, in that vein, what stands out to you about Deep Work?

Katie:

I think the emphasis on this idea... It was the first time that I'd ever seen someone talk about how the way you work as opposed to what you're working on determines how fulfilling it is. Even if you're not crazy passionate about your job or the subject matter that you can actually change your approach to work and the type of projects you're doing, and it is all contingent upon this idea of flow state, which I think is really interesting, and how it makes work very deeply fulfilling and an interesting and enjoyable way to spend your time.

I just read Derek Thompson's book, it's called On Work: Money, Meaning, Identity. It's a collection of his essays for the Atlantic about work, and I also just find his approach very interesting because he thinks about it from that almost Alien comes to earth lens and has a very rich historical perspective on how work has evolved post-industrial revolution and what he sees next in the future of work and how our relationship with work is changing and how Americans specifically think about work and how that's different than maybe how the rest of the world conceives of it.

Henah:

Can I ask a challenging question? I just noticed, as you're talking, that the authors we referenced for women and personal finance were all women, which makes sense, but everyone that you referenced so far for the approaches to work have been men, and I'm curious if that is something that you have noticed or is something that feels like a trend or a theme?

Katie:

I guess I'm even having a hard time now thinking about productivity or careerist work writers that are women.

Henah:

I wonder if that says more about the fact that men have more time to think about productivity than women who are caretakers and how-

Katie:

Throw us the tweet where it's like, "I have six kids and here's how I run a company." And then the quote tweet that just ratioed the hell out of it was like, "His wife stays at home with the kids." It's like, "He has a stay at home spouse."

Henah:

I just wonder if that's happening here. It's just something interesting I noticed, and maybe-

Katie:

Yeah, that's really funny. It's a good observation. Or it could just be that I've only ever sought out productivity advice from men, but I don't know. I'm sure there are women that write about this that are out there. Definitely though, I think you're right. It's like the Timversification of the space. It is mostly young white men that write about productivity.

Henah:

Yeah, I was going to make the racial observation as well, which was that all of these are white authors, maybe with the exception of Jia Tolentino, I was just curious if there was a light bulb that maybe went off that's like, there's a very specific niche.

Katie:

Well, it's going off now because you're turning it on, you just turn the light bulb on.

Henah:

For even bestsellers and what makes it into the mainstream. I don't know. It's just interesting. And then I have a final question from me, which is what book are you most excited about?

Katie:

Well, dear listener, I'm most excited for my own book that's going to be coming out in 2025. So mark your calendars. Go by a calendar for 2025 and put the... No, I'm just kidding. Well, right now the working title is Rise of the Rich Girls. We're really focused, and when I say we, I'm referring to the editor that I'm working with at the publishing house. We're trying to really hone right now the angle, if you will, and I think what I've settled on is, maybe this entire conversation has been indicative of this, that intersection between the systemic, and the cultural, and the economic, and the individual personal financial choices that you are making and what happens at the intersection of those two things.

Henah:

Wait, that's hilarious. I didn't even tell you that this was the questions I was going to be asking.

Katie:

You teed me up really well, I have to say. So yes, that's the angle, but I want it to feel very empowering. It's very easy to go to a doomer place with all of this and to be like, "Well, it's hopeless. We shouldn't even try. Everything's effed." Really doubling down though on what you are capable of and that you do have agency and that knowledge is power and you can do it, and we together can close, I think, what I'm really focusing on is the six big drivers as I see them, of the gender wealth gap.

And not just the wage gap, which I think Claudia Goldin who just won the Nobel Prize, I think Claudia's got that one covered. The Harvard economists are on that one. SEC, Katie Gatti Tassin is going to tackle the wealth gap with her PR degree. No, I'm just kidding. From all the work we've done over the years, I think there are several... Six to be specific, things that I see as key drivers of the wealth gap, and they are both systemic and individual, and so I think addressing them one by one and going through that broader cultural, socioeconomic, political context of all of it, and then getting into, "But what can you actually do to impact this for yourself? How can you defy statistics?" That is where we're at right now, but I'm still very much in the thick of writing it, so we'll see. By the time it comes out, it could be about something totally different, I guess.

Henah:

Well, listeners, when I get my advanced reader copy, I will clue you guys in.

Katie:

Yes, that's where we're at. All right, well that is all for this week's Rich Girl roundup of books, and we'll see you on Wednesday to talk about the people who taught you how to read, your educators. Bye.

Henah:

Bye.